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Thread: BSW

  1. #11
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    I agree /// we need to run this to the ground because the skill level involved in this fake are way above the normal" humper jobs" seen / the person who built this is quite gifted and knowledgeable.
    Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.

  2. #12
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    On 30 Mar 12, this rifle is discussed in the ww2weaponsforum:

    http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...light=rare+gun

    On 04 Apr 12, this same rifle is discussed in the Gunboards forum:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?262643-k98

    It appears Frankj23 was the buyer.

    On 04 Jul 14, Frank starts a discussion on the ww2weaponsforum on BSW 1939. You can see the now-altered rifle in the pictures. Frank discusses the difficulty of faking numbers on BSW:

    http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...highlight=1939

    On 01 Aug 14, Frankj23 revisits the gunboards post to update his two-year-old post: it appears he killed the link back to ww2weaponsforum/Gunbroker:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?262643-k98

    Frank then creates distance between himself and the rifle, consigning it to ironmenarms. The rifle was identified and the forgery exposed by Loewe:

    http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...highlight=1939

    Frank is involved in the forgery.
    Last edited by DAK; 18th March 2015 at 12:16 AM.

  3. #13
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    I agree, the chain of custody on the rifle is pretty linear.

    It begs the question - why consign the rifle? Frank - you clearly do well auctioning guns on Gunbroker, why consign it and not sell it yourself?
    Buy the Karabiner98k and Kriegsmodell book direct from the authors - www.thirdpartypress.com

  4. #14
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    I am not happy with the way this is turning out.

    The owner of the BSW personally assured me his hands were clean, that he was the unwitting victim of a scam.

    I would like him to publicly speak out on the subject, explain what happened, and clear the air.

    I hope that, in fact, his explanation of events, that he portrayed to me, were factual, and that he can plausibly disprove any allegation of wrong doing on his part.

    It hurts the hobby if even a whiff of impropriety is not quickly, properly, and candidly dispelled.
    Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfarb View Post
    I agree, the chain of custody on the rifle is pretty linear.

    It begs the question - why consign the rifle? Frank - you clearly do well auctioning guns on Gunbroker, why consign it and not sell it yourself?
    That has a very straightforward answer. As all of you surely remember, I got lucky last year and actually received $15,025 for a very ordinary rifle. It generated way more notoriety for me than I wanted.
    Considering that I thought I had a genuine, but refinished BSW, I figured it would sell for a lot of money. I had never sold a high end gun, and Ironmen do it all the time. I bought an expensive S/147 K date
    from them last year, and was impressed by them. They had the " gravitas " that I did not have, plus they would get the attention from the sale instead of me. That is why I consigned it. Nothing sinister.
    I had, by then, 3 other , non-refinished BSWs, so I figured I would sell the refinished one and get some money to make up for what I spent on the other 3.
    Last edited by frankj23; 18th March 2015 at 06:04 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I am not happy with the way this is turning out.

    The owner of the BSW personally assured me his hands were clean, that he was the unwitting victim of a scam.

    I would like him to publicly speak out on the subject, explain what happened, and clear the air.

    I hope that, in fact, his explanation of events, that he portrayed to me, were factual, and that he can plausibly disprove any allegation of wrong doing on his part.

    It hurts the hobby if even a whiff of impropriety is not quickly, properly, and candidly dispelled.
    Here is what I sent Dave when the whole Ironmen thing happened. Seems unlikely, but so does getting $4446 for an ordinary 1940 243 KM and $15,025 for an even more ordinary 1939 147.
    Strange stuff happens to me. I have frequently bought guns impulsively, and regretted it later. On other occasions, I ran the guns past Dave, and he prevented me from buying them.


    Default Re: Listen we have ALL made mistakes buying guns that turned out to be dicked with. I
    Listen we have ALL made mistakes buying guns that turned out to be dicked with. I truly think you are over reacting by selling off things. I respect your right to do as you wish with what is yours, but I have at least 6 guns I paid good money for that I will lose money on when I sell them.[/QUOTE]

    Dear Dave -

    My mistake is worse than others. I consigned this faked gun, which could have ruined Ironmen's reputation, had it sold and had it not been picked
    up by the astute members of the forum. Let me tell you the whole story now- I bought that gun in 2012, directly from the seller, not on Gunbroker, because I asked him a question about
    it and he emailed me directly after it did not sell, and offered it to me for $1650. It never could have been traced back to me through Gunbroker, because it was not
    a Gunbroker transaction. It was the first k98 I ever bought, back in my starting days, when I thought they
    were all " Mausers ". I had no idea it was a special code. I did not know about codes. Or dates. Or blocks or even " matching ". I had never taken a German
    gun apart. I just thought it was pretty - nice metal, nice stock. I did not think " this gun has been sanded to shit! "
    I made some of my first forum posts about my proud acquisition. I learned it was somehow special, but also that is was worthless because of the sanding
    that I had thought looked so cool. My foolish, naive posts embarrassed my later, when I had learned a little.
    But soon, after all my friends made fun of it for being sanded to death, I sold it to a guy at my rifle range for $1600. I was glad to get rid of it.
    I had NO idea it was a ~!!! Naval 1939 BSW !!!~ It was just a stupid, sanded gun, that I got my money back on.
    Later, I learned what BSW meant, but did not connect it all with the first gun I bought, that sanded joke. You know I have been
    bugging you for a BSW for a couple of years. Anyway, I was also asking people at my gun club if anybody had a BSW.
    One day, a guy came and showed me that humped gun. I was totally suckered by it. I took pictures of it, showed them to
    Bruce, and he said he did not like the channel number, but the rest seemed OK. Bruce said to be cautious, and probably not
    to buy it. But, after months of debating and haggling, I decided it looked good despite one questionable part, and bought
    it for $4000 in cash, plus a Saiga 12, which I hated anyway. Then, as luck would have it, I found and bought 2 more, genuine, all matching 1939 BSWs, including
    one KM. Just last month, I got another one. So, I decided to sell the one that is now known to be a fake, because it was clearly refinished
    and I had 3 perfect ones. I offered it on consignment because I thought it might sell for a lot, and I did not want my name
    associated with it, after all the unwanted publicity I got from that $15,025 1939 147 I sold.[ http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthread.php?12080-WTF ].
    I did not want more publicity.
    On the day of the auction, I came home and checked the forum auctions section, saw the pictures of the sanded gun, and realized that
    I had been sold my old gun back. I had never connected the beautiful [ fake ] gun with the sanded thing I bought as my first k98.

    I told all of this to the Ironmen [ Jared ], but naturally he believes I just was scamming him. I can understand why.
    Truth is weirder than fiction, in this case.

    So, I was a double idiot. I bought a crap gun twice, and did not even realize it.

    Anyway, it is hard and isolating to be a gun collector in San Francisco. Everybody thinks I am a " gun nut ", blah, blah, blah.

    I am just tired of it all.

    I hope my guns sell for good prices.

    At the end of this all, I will sell the fake BSW on Gunbroker, billing it as a stock mismatch, with a replaced,
    renumbered stock. I will mark the stock channel and hand guard in a way that it could never be passed off as genuine again.
    It will be a great placeholder for somebody who cannot afford or cannot find a genuine 1939 Naval BSW. I also
    think it will bring a good price, simply because it looks damn good, and some people will want it. That will be my
    last sale, and I will not care what anybody says or thinks.

    Once again, I appreciate all the advice you have given me, and all the support when I had made bad purchases
    or decisions.

    But this one was so bad that I can never forget it or live it down.

    Best to you always,
    Frank


    OK, there it is. As I said above, I will be selling my stuff, although will probably keep all 3 BSWs, the 147 K date, and a few guns
    that Bruce and Mike were kind enough to sell me. But all else will be sold as I get the energy to present them. Have fun discussing
    them, but I will not be reading the posts. This is my last post and my last visit to this fine forum.

  7. #17
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    Okay, there you have it as he represented it to me.
    Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.

  8. #18
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    Frank claims he was sold his own gun back and that he did not recall it. Review this Gunboards thread:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?262643-k98

    His initial post, showing in the link is dated 04-03-2012 and shows "Last edited by frankj23; 08-01-2014 at 07:22 PM". So he didn't remember owning the rifle, but he remembered that he posted it on Gunboards years earlier and went back and updated that post, likely to remove the link back to Gunbroker/ww2weaponsforum? This, by itself, proves he knew full well he had previously owned the rifle.

    In the same thread, some collectors ask him what he paid for the rifle and MauserGuy85 quoted Frank at "ok $1,600". That is about the same price he said he paid for it and is the price he sold it for. Most if his posts were altered in an attempt to hide his involvement in the rifle: he tries to shift focus to an S237.

    It is also important to note Frank is a C&R holder and is required to maintain a log showing where he gets his weapons and who he sells them to. He should have a record of exactly who he sold it to and who he bought it from. The one I have on file of his was set to expire in Oct 14 and would likely have covered at least some of the transactions covered here. However, he does not name names. If he were truly deceived, why wouldn't he identify the culprits?

    Frank is involved in the fraud of this rifle.

    And lastly, who DOESN'T remember their first K98k. Mine was an S/27 1937 serial number 3811 D all matching action in a Yugo stock. I spent hours going over every detail of that rifle. There is no way I would forget it. I typed everything about this rifle from memory and I don't know many collectors who can't do that about their first K98k.
    Last edited by DAK; 18th March 2015 at 08:05 PM.

  9. #19
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    Yes, The first matching 98k I ever owned was a late phosphate bcd 4,[ $130.00 plus tax from a Pawn Shop in Louisville Kentucky, in 1972], that Mike Steves now owns. I would know that rifle anywhere , I was so damned proud of it.
    Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAK View Post

    On 04 Jul 14, Frank starts a discussion on the ww2weaponsforum on BSW 1939. You can see the now-altered rifle in the pictures. Frank discusses the difficulty of faking numbers on BSW:

    http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...highlight=1939
    I made a mistake in this post: "You can see the now-altered rifle in the pictures". The third picture on his first post in the linked thread shows some areas of damage off the right side of the lower inspection stamp and I thought this matched the damage on the auction rifle. In looking at all right-side markings, it appears to be a different rifle.

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